Forum Replies Created
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Greg
“Alas I dare not leave it down” – I didn’t suggest you should – leaving it up isn’t the issue.
“likely increase the movement” – why do you think this is an issue? I suggested that you let it move freely. It won’t do any harm.
I have always tried to discourage Atalanta owners from redesigning the boats. I would be very cautious about changing to rope. The pulleys are designed for wire – it isn’t as simple as just replacing wire with rope. Beware the unintended consequences of “improving” the design. The system works as designed – my strong advice is to leave it as it is.
The solution to your problem is to allow the tiller to move freely when you leave the boat on its mooring with the rudder blade raised. I have been doing that for 20 years. It isn’t an issue.
Trevor
My last post contained errors. The errors don’t change the outcome but for anyone with a vaguely scientific background there are glaring. So to correct it (I tried editing the post but the system wouldn’t do it.)
the 100 kg that the helm can apply to the tiller has to be converted into a force in Newtons
F = m x g so F = 100 x 9.81 = 981N
The torque on the TILLER stock is T = F x L = 981 x 1 = 981 Nm
The force on the wire is 981 / 0.075 = 1308N
The safe working load for the wire was given in kg – as if a weight was hanging on the end of the wire.
So that force on the wire of 1308N can be converted to a weight using F = m x g transposed to m = F / g
So m = 1308 / 9.81 = 1333.33 kg.
That is 92% of the safe working load for the wire.
Why have I calculated this? I think I have established that a helms person cannot apply enough force to overload that wire – but they could get close to its safe working load. This applies whether the blade is up or down. If it is up you cant apply enough force to exceed the wires safe working load – the rudder blade will control the tiller not you.
The situation is very different with the tiller held still by ropes. The raised rudder blade can exert sufficient force on the wire to exceed the wires safe working load.
My conclusion remains as per the last post. Repeatedly exceeding the safe working load of the wire is bound to reduce its working life and lead to premature failure.
Trevor
I have just carried out a few rough calculations.
If the tiller is 1 metre long.
If you can exert a pull about the same as your weight on the tiller about 220lbs or 100Kg.
The torque on the rudder stock is T = F x L.
This is T = 100 x 1 = 100Nm
If the arm at the bottom of the tiller stock is say 3″ or 75mm long – just a guess I haven’t measured it.
Then the force on the wire is F = T / length
Wire force = 100/0.075 = 1333Kg.
If we use 5mm stainless wire it has a safe working load of 1448kg. I think the breaking load is 14210kg.
So I reckon that at the most the helmsman can apply a load which is just within the safe working load.
However on a mooring, when the blade is raised, and the helm locked, that safe working load will regularly be exceeded by shock loads as the boat swings between wind and tide. It clearly isn’t reaching the breaking load of the wire – or you would come back to the boat to find a broken wire.
If anyone is unsure about the force that a raised rudder can exert on the helm try motoring backwards, with the blade raised. Hold that tiller centrally and firmly or you will lose control of the tiller.
I think this is the cause of your problems.
Check my calculations and take measurements to see how far out I am – but I think my values are in the correct order of magnitude.
Trevor
Oh – I forgot to mention that Calista is kept on a mooring where there is 1M at low water springs, so she is always left with the blade raised, and the tiller totally free.
Trevor
Greg,
I have never had any problems with my steering control cables. I suspect that they are original. I have used them for 25 years without any problems. They are still in good condition with no broken strands.
There may be an issue in that you say that you lock the helm when on a swinging mooring and that the rudder is raised. My understanding has always been that you should NOT do that, particularly if the blade is raised. With the rudder raised natural movement of the boat can place an enormous strain on the system – such as when the wind opposes the tide. A shock cord which allowed the tiller to move would be much kinder to the rudder system.
I don’t know that this would be the cause of your problems – but it might have a bearing on the problem.
On the other hand I have frequently had to replace the uphaul and downhaul wires which pass over extremely small sheaves.
Trevor
George
Calista is afloat all the time on her mooring – so I cant give a definitive answer.
However I don’t think you will have a problem. When she is sitting in the mud it will be wet mud – so it should not cause the keels to stick. I would leave the keels with a small amount showing in the hope that as the tide rises the keels will emerge from the slots slightly. I would hope that would keep them free.
Trevor
Greg
It is difficult to create a satisfactory bilge pumping system for an Atalanta. I don’t think many actually have a working bilge pump.
Mikes solution is probably as good as you can get. However it is possible to mount a bilge pump in the cockpit and route permanent pipework to two compartments using 2 way valves (you can buy them from the usual places). Calista has such a system. In her case that covers everything except the aft cabin and the focsl. Not perfect but I prefer something built in rather than movable.
You shouldn’t necessarily dismiss an electric system. As long as the batteries are not in the bilges, that is a perfectly reasonable arrangement. You are more likely to be able to service every compartment that way. Manual bilge pumping is hard work – and you might also have other things to think about in an emergency.
If a leak is that bad – you arn’t going to be able to keep it afloat anyway.
Trevor
You really need to download the Keel servicing manual which is among the Technical papers on the website. It will tell you everything about the keels and how they work. The keels don’t work in the way that a conventional centreboard works. I recommend that you read it before you attempt to solve this problem.
It isn’t a major problem but you will expend a lot of time and effort to free them.
It is inevitable that the keels will need attention when you have just got the boat. You may have to remove the keels to sort this out properly.
Trevor
Doug
It is most unlikely to work through the hull. GRP and laminated timber behave differently.
I would fit it through the hull. I have had one that was permanently fitted with the connection through the hull and thew current transducer it fitted into a proper tube so that it can be removed for cleaning. Identical to a log installation. Very rarely need to do that with the echo sounder transducer but you certainly do with a log.
Trevor
Hi,
I think you should be very careful with regard to fitting a heavy old engine into an Atalanta.
The Atalanta is a light weight high tech boat. It needs to be kept light for performance and safety.
Any second hand Volvo which is for sail cheaply will be for sale for a very good reason. The reason will make it uneconomical to repair.
The BIG issue when reengaging an Atalanta is shaft alignment. The original engines have little engine below the shaft line and will fit onto the shaft with a direct coupling. Any alteration to a different engine (one which was not fitted originally) is likely to require some complex engineering. A cardan shaft is almost certain to be needed, to enable an engine flywheel mounted higher in the boat to couple to the existing shaft. That consists of a thrust bearing, two constant velocity joints and a length of shaft. The engine bearers will need modifying and the lids which cover the engine will need raising to cover the higher engine. Make sure that any engine you buy is worth going to all this trouble and expense over before you fit it.
You might find that it is actually cheaper to fit a new engine! Or make do with what you have until you can afford the new one.
As to Solone, yes she does have a large heavy engine, and Dinah and I have sailed in company with her when Keith Viewing was still alive. She has many alterations which were designed for serious offshore sailing, and she does float lower than she should. I particularly liked the life raft stowage space. I know Solone can punch into a head sea under engine, but the downside of that is that Keith had to continue motoring in conditions where we were able to stop the engine and sail.
Finally while it might seem reassuring to have a powerful engine (it is reassuring and Calista has an 18hp engine) remember that the Atalanta revels in strong winds. She is at her best beating to windward in a force 6, and will consistently do that at 6 knots or more. It is far more effective to deal with a strong headwind under sail in a sailing boat. However powerful the engine, progress to windward will be slow wet and uncomfortable if you try to motor through it.
I know it works – but I wo
How high to make the Bimini?
I would try not to raise the boom more than you have to. I would suggest trying 300mm (12inches) as a starting point. See how much headroom that would give. I am 5′ 10″ and can just stand up under the bimini when at the back of the cockpit, but at the front of the cockpit the engine box protrudes reducing that. If you try to allow for 6′ 2″ standing headroom you are going to be losing lots of mainsail area. We spend more time sitting in the cockpit rather than standing – so the critical thing is to have good sitting headroom even if you have to stoop to move about the cockpit.
Of course you also have to think about how the framework fits, and whether it can fold up/down, and how many separate frame sections are involved?
Whatever you do will be a compromise.
Toilets and holding tanks
There are only 2 or 3 Atalanta’s where the toilet has been moved to the aft cabin – so you won’t get much in the way of feedback to this. Those few who have them in the rear cabin (at the front near the hatchway and to one side) speak positively about it.
I am not really a fan of the idea. Perhaps because the headroom in our rear cabin is very limited so I cant see how it would work on a Titania.
Just realised I forgot one comment I wanted to make. Don’t confuse a proper fridge (as I described fitting) with an electrical cool box. They are totally different.
Electrical cool boxes are based on a peltier effect electronic ship. They cool the inside 15 degrees cooler than the outside if I remember correctly. So when its 35 degrees outside its 20 degrees inside. That is not going to keep milk from going off! To do that they consume typically 7.5 amperes constantly.
A proper fridge uses an electrical compressor and the same liquid/gas system you have in the fridge at home. They cool to sub zero temperatures if required. Ours takes 2.5 amperes when the compressor is running. It runs about 50% of the time. As in it runs for 90 seconds then it goes off for 90 seconds. So the average is something like 1.3 Amperes constantly coming from the battery, and the fridge is at about 5 degrees inside, and its 35 degrees outside it. Our solar panels can give up to 5 amperes in the med. So you can see that the solar panel will provide ample power for a proper fridge (which is keeping food fresh) – but has no chance of powering an electrical cool box (which isn’t keeping food fresh).
Trevor
To provide my take on the issues you raise I have copied your headings below:
Holding tanks – to comply with various EU and local laws
The BIG issue with holding tanks is that you won’t find many places where you can get them pumped out (and not at a sensible price if you find it ) and the alternative is to go miles offshore. So no country actually takes this seriously. So what do you want to achieve here. If it is to satisfy a notional inspector then you could use a camping toilet (portapoty) or a built in holding tank. The built in tank will inevitably be far to small to be of any practical use. As Nick mentioned in his reply Calista has a holding tank fitted in the eyes of the boat in front of the toilet. It holds about 12 hours worth of use for 2 people. That is with a Lavac toilet which is frugal with flushing water. That said – it depends on what you want to achieve. Calista often spends a tide dried out on a sandy beach – and the holding tank works well for that. If you want to transit France by canal you will need a huge tank – and that just will not fit into an Atalanta. I would suggest the practical solution is a camping toilet which at least can be emptied at a canalside campsite.
A Bimini – possibly needing raising the goose neck to give sufficient headroom
I think that a Bimini is essential for what you intend. Temperatures in Southern Europe are getting warmer each year. Human beings need protection from that sun – skin cancer is a real issue which you must protect yourself against. Firstly a wide brimmed hat. I like the Tilley version. Calista as you already have been told has a Bimini. She is a Titania so slightly different. We can sail with it up – and if you cant it is no use to you. The Bimini is erected and stays up for the whole summer in warmer climes. Our Bimini has mountings to take a 100 watt flexible solar panel, sides front and back to convert it into a cockpit tent. We sometimes sail in wet welsh weather with the bimini up and the front attached. Oilskins are then totally unecessary!
Rejigging the pushpit to incorporate a swimming ladder, a platform for stern-to mooring
Adding a frame/arch to support solar panelling, most likely added to the pushpit
Installing some form of bowsprit incorporating anchor guide, bow roller, tack point for a code 0/1.I am lumping these together because I detect a theme – and that is added weight. You must resist the temptation to add heavy items. There was a Titania which was refitted for a med voyage which sank when it was launched. Not a joke it happened. I was asked to advise when it had subsequently found a new owner who wanted to know why the water flowed from the cockpit into the cabin when it was launched. Most of the additions had been removed by then but the aft cabin still had a large fuel tank in it – which was full. You can guess what I suggested.
Anyway a swimming ladder will be used – just the sort you can get from any chandlery and fix to the transom. Resist that platform for stern mooring. It is totally uneccesary. Stern mooring is not the solution – you should moor bows in. Almost all mediterranean moorings now have laid lines so you won’t be using an anchor and backing in. You can go in bows first and fish out the line from the bows – or the “marinaro” will hold it up so you can reach it. Attach that to the stern and pass bow lines ashore. This way you protect your rudder from the shallows near the quay, avoid having a long raised rudder to keep you miles from the quay and gain privacy in your cockpit. which is now not open to passing eyes.
Solar panels are a good idea – 100 watt should run a proper fridge and instruments while sailing. But keep it simple and light. Possibly even movable.
Any form of bowsprit or appendage there has to be strong, and not damage the structure of the boat. Remember Atalanta’s are really lightly built and you could easily rip the deck off. The anchor fitting on your bow is designed to do the job without damaging the boat – I would stick with it. Some extension to enable a big jib to be flown? My experience is that their is enough wind for you to reach 1.5 knots under your normal rig – or there is not enough to wind to fill any sail – however big it is. (As an aside 3/4 rig Atalanta’s can fly a masthead genoa in up to force 3 without modification – and that might be worth while if you have 3/4 rig).
Adding an electric windlass – principally to aid stern-to mooring single-handed with the aid of an anchor.
An anchor winch is a worth while addition for anchoring full stop. I certainly won’t try raising anchors without mechanical aid. However electrical versions require large currents and only work when the engine is on. They need starter cable size wiring from the battery bank. They are not reliable. I certainly would not contemplate an electrical one – even though you may find it difficult to find an anchor winch in a chandlery which isn’t electrically powered. I also think you overestimate the need for laying an anchor for a mediterranean mooring.
Fitting boom roller reefing – means reefing and sail management can be controlled from the cockpit
I presume you mean one of the patent systems – because all Atalanta’s were fitted with boom roller reefing from new. I use the original roller reefing on my mainsail and I never leave the cockpit. Sometimes I stand on the cockpit coaming to reach the end of the boom. Perhaps I should explain that I like sails to set properly so I tie down the cringe at the gooseneck with a lashing after rolling the reef in. I then use a lashing at the end to pull out the foot of the sail and around the boom to take the strain off the sail canvas. Effectively it is points reefing without the points. I think there is no real need to spend lots of money on a clever boom reefing system. It adds weight – drains funds – and is probably no better in practice.
Tailored storage points for the rib/dinky on the rear deck – but this would impact access via the rear platform – is the idea of a foldable dinghy (a la Seahopper) a sensible option?
I am not really taken with the Dinky as a tender – it isn’t very stable as a tender. It must be really difficult to get on and off the rear deck. Most people carry an inflatable. They are horrible to row, but they are stable and comparatively easy to stow. They are a nuisance though – do you stow it on a bunk at sea, or on the aft deck. Either way it is in the way. On the aft deck it makes the aft cabin hatch difficult to open – its probably on top of it. However dedicated lashing points to hold it there seems a good idea – if that is where you are going to stow it. Since my sons have grown up I tend to keep it in the aft cabin, which is more often in use as a lazarette.
Autohelm versus mechanical self steering gear. Eg Navico TP1800 Tillerpilot?
As others have mentioned there have been mechanical self steering systems fitted to Atalanta’s. The advantage of wind powered systems is that they do not consume electricity from your batteries. The disadvantage is that they only work when there is WIND. You will find plenty of times when there is insufficient wind to enable wind powered self steering to work. The answer is an Autohelm – or other electrical tiller pilot. Solar panels will overcome the electrical consumption. I have an auto helm – which is reliable and consumes little enough power that I use it frequently.
Installing an ice box with a cooling powered by the solar panelling
There are really three options here. Firstly you can use products which do not go off quickly. Dried milk powder for example. Vegitarian diet to avoid meat going off. And so on. We have done it and it works – with limits of course. Do you really like dried milk powder in your tea?
Secondly a simple coolbox using ice cubes bought from a supermarket. The ice is available everywhere and it works. There is a cost but it is probably cheaper than a proper fridge.
The proper fridge is really the bees knees in this department. We bought a kit with compressor and holding plate, plus a kit for making the actual coolbox. That was sheets of plastic faced insulation which were cut and glued together with silicone RTV. The finished device will work as a freezer it is so powerful and well insulated. Running as a fridge we can leave it switched on all the time and the 120 watt of solar panels fitted to Calista will maintain the battery in clear sunny weather with long daylight hours.
In practice I have found that fridge auto helm and instruments will all run of the solar power and the engine hours that we naturally accumulate when cruising. We rarely feel the need to use shore power.
Adding extra portlights or hatches to increase airflow and natural lighting in fore and rear cabins.
While Calista is slightly different to an Atalanta I think that you are worrying unnecessarily here. Open the fore hatch – it will scoop air down into the boat when propped half open. Open the main and aft companionways and hatches.We sail like that most of the time when its hot. The MCA might not like the idea of an open fore hatch at sea but I cant remember getting water in through it. Certainly a Titania fore hatch is well clear of the sea. Some form of opening port might be of use in the aft cabin particularly in port. It is always hotter in port than out on the water. If you are going to be stopping in a marina or port for some time then covers over the decks make a big difference. Calista has a set of covers which go over the whole boat in three sections. We have used them – but not very often, probably because we don’t tend to spend ages in one place.
One issue you have not raised is mosquitoes. There are plenty of those in the med and the canals. We have net screens to cover all the openings. It is often hot when you need them so it helps if you can keep hatches and companionways open but covered with mesh to let air flow but catch the insects. That is worth some effort to make them. Simple light effective. Roll them up and stow in a corner under a bunk – and I guarantee you will be glad you have them!
Replacement inboard motor required – suitable power rating and make which would be easy to maintain in France/the med.
The manufacturers of inboard engines are now international – so it won’t matter what make you have. They are often based on another makers industrial engine anyway – so it might be useful to know the base engine make as well. Power depends on what you want to achieve. 3 knots entering harbour then 8 to 10 hp. If you want to cruise all day at 5.5 knots through a flat calm then 15 to 18hp might be more suitable. Remember when motoring into a head wind most of the power is taken moving through the wind – so a more powerful engine will get you into shelter when you really want to find shelter NOW. Most modern engines require some form of thrust block cordon shaft arrangement when fitted into an Atalanta. Modern engines are higher than old ones so need to be installed below the original shaft line.
230v shore power with distribution MCB board.
Yes Calista has shore power fitted. Do we use it – rarely. We rarely use marinas or places where shore power is available. It is useful when laid up though – I leave the batteries on trickle charge all winter via the shore power connection in our boat shed. I suppose you might use your Atalanta in a different way to us – and it might well be of use. If you spend a week or so in one harbour – and you can get shore power then it could keep the fridge cool, the batteries charged and all the gadgets topped up. In the summer you aught to be able to do that with solar power anyway!
Hope this reply is of use
Trevor
Im not sure that sounds right. The front has to come up as the front of the keel rises – unless it is detached from the stirrup. Even then I think the force on the block would be more upwards than backwards. So where did you hear that – and which boats – I want to know more!
Richard
I am interested in the different ways of sealing the keel box slots. I have heard about automatic arrangements which allow the original blocks to rise and fall – but I have never really understood how they work.
Calista has had rubber sealing strips since I have had her – and they have had to be replaced at regular intervals. However I suppose replacing them 3 times in 20 years is not too bad – it is just that I hate doing the same job again – and again.
I would have thought the standard original arrangement would work for you. What exactly are the problems that others have had with these?
On the other hand if the Marglass is really clean you might get away with bonding rubber strips on to the hull using something like sikaflex. Holding them in the correct position while the “glue” sets might be tricky – and there is always the risk that the glue line might fail.
We also carry a life raft on the aft deck on a purpose made garage which covers the Aft cabin hatch and incorporates rails to secure the liferaft. Two small solar panels also fit onto it.
Hi
Well at least I can show you how we get onto Calista from the Dinghy, and from the water when swimming.
You might find www.kayospruce.com useful. They supply sailmaking materials to the trade, but they also supply small quantities retail.
I will measure my halyard in the morning. I think 6mm will be strong enough – the issue is handling it without pain!
I think the idea of a light weight genoa is a good idea, particularly in the med.
There are two types of Atalanta masts (assuming yours is wooden) narrow and deep section. The narrow was fitted to early boats and is for 3/4 rig. However it was always considerd suitable to take masthead spinnaker etc in force 3 or less. The deep section usually on later boats and is the same for 3/4 and mast head rig. In fact the difference between the two is minor, and confined to the masthead fitting having an extra tang for the forestay. So with that type of mast mast head sails are no issue at all.
You aught to be able to handle your halyards at the foot of the mast while stood in the main hatchway, so the extra cleats etc should not be needed. Have you tried that?
PS hold fire on the T2L to see what Chris thinks.
Chris
It certainly looks like a QME. Presumably it worked to some extent.
Anyone else able to add anything?
Trevor
Chris Green said:Trevor – Have attached below a picture of Kerry Piper in the 1970s sent by Sebastien Vanblaere (whose father was the owner in that period). Kerry Piper is sporting a wind vane of some type, so presumably worked okay. I picked up a
Plastimo vane system at one time (looks similar to the QME); it was too lightweight for the 9 ton Hilliard I wanted it for so I sold it to a chap with a smaller wooden (long keel) sloop and I think he had it working OK. I am looking at self steering from the sheets to tiller (whipstaff in this case) as an experiment when KP is afloat. Some interesting stuff on this if you are interested at http://www.blueanarchy.org/selfsteering/ – I think this could work on the Atalanta.
There are only 5 copies of the calendar left. They are £5 each. Anyone wanting a copy should let me know soon. Any left over will be at the AGM – and I am sure there will be none left after that!
OK everyone in the replies above has been noted. I will let you all know how much they will be as soon as the printer lets me know.
Trevor
Mary does not feature unfortunately. All the photos are from the latest Bulletin which has hot yet been printed! Does that mean you don’t want one?
Trevor
I was a bit harsh in my previous comment. Perhaps it would be better to say that the plates were a temporary repair. However I would still want to see what was underneath! At the least the plates indicate that someone was concerned about the skeg moving from side to side. It is likely that the bolts are corroded after all this time, and failure here will result in loss of steering. So I would investigate. If you want to see how it all fits together look for the blog I wrote about calistas road accident.
They are a previous owners bodge.
Presumably the skeg started to come away from the hull. I would get them off and investigate what is going on underneath. You mayl have to replace through bolts which go through the hull into the skeg which will have corroded away. You may also have deterioration of the skeg and/or deadwood.
Trevor
An interesting thought!
I was wondering about something along the same lines – but I had been thinking about the propeller grease which you see advertised. Initially because there was a lot of barnackle growth on the prop and shaft this year, but also because it might help reduce the barnacles I get between the keels and along the sand keel.
I cant see any harm in using it on the keels.
Just a thought.
I have been looking at a photo of an atalanta sailing hard on the wind with one keel box totally out of the water.
I wonder if she would be faster with tha windward keel fully raised? My thinking is that the keel weighs more out of the water – so lifting it would increase the righting moment, and reduce the wetted surface area.
Would that balance the loss of keel area stopping sideways motion?
