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Hi Greg,
Neither stilts nor surgery required. I suspect that a clever bit of marketing (nowadays called ‘spin’) conveniently forgot to mention that the sails were easily handled from the cockpit, but only when they were set. With A1 though, you could also set the sails without stilts, surgery or leaving the cockpit.
Ever tried a pogo stick – every boat ought to have one……………………………….?
Aye Mike
Stephen,
You raise some interesting issues.
Let me be upfront – I have no experience of an outboard on the aft end of an Atalanta.
Balance – a small outboard on the aft end is not going to be much of a trim issue unless you also have an 80 kg person perched on the aft end operating the outboard.
The propeller need to be well immersed – the last thing you want is the propeller to come out of the water when the boat porpoises in strong wash or swell – so long shaft essential.
But I suppose my main concern is practicability. One person is on the aft deck operating the engine; another person is on the foredeck ready to anchor or pick up a mooring; a further person is (probably) in the cockpit ready to deal with sails. Co-ordinating that lot will be interesting – not impossible, but interesting!!
Good luck!
Mike
Hi Steve,
Sorry, can’t help with suggesting a ‘trusted tradesman’.
Agree with Nick though, that it’s as well to strip right back to bare wood before re-coating. Better to deal with soft spots rather than discovering them at a later stage. Atalantas are well known for harbouring less than sound areas on the decks where water has been allowed to stand. Just a fact of life and no reflection on former ownerships – but it does happen all too often.
Cheers
Mike
Doug,
1. Not sure I understand the problem. Am I correct in thinking that the ‘yoke’ is gouging the woodwrk on the for’d side of the aft cabin bulkhead? In which case what happened to the metal flange and sleeve arrangement bolted through the bulkhead? Have you a picture?
2. Suggest nipping up the bolt at the foot of the whipstaff so that the whipstaff can’t flop forward. Makes it rigid of course, but will solve the problem. If you don’t want to do this, then a light line made fast at either end of the horse and dropped over the fore side of the whipstaff ought to prevent it flopping forward. Not too tight a line though.
Aye Mike
Greg,
Tempting fate here, but I have never had a cable fail. Twice, on different boats, I’ve had the pulley blocks pull out of the adjacent woodwork which in effect gives the same result as a failed cable.
On all three boats, T4, A31/4 and A1 have had s/s cables. None were oversized; none were over tensioned. In fact there was always a bit of play in the system, which is fine as long as it’s not too sloppy.
Agree with Jim – I doubt whether working to and fro whilst on a mooring is an issue.
Don’t have an answer as such, but to my mind, any cable needs to be as flexible as possible. Also check the provenance as I’ve heard anecdotal evidence from more than one source that s/s from China is not up to much.
Mike
George,
For many years I had Gellie, T4, on a drying mooring in Stonehaven. The mooring dried to softish mud – the sort where you definitely don’t want to stand for too long in one place – and never had a problem. She formed a slight hollow beneath the hull and always remained plumb upright.
In your case, I wouldn’t hesitate!
Cheers Mike
No problems Doug – I’ll get them off to you.
I inherited them free, so no charge. A suitable donating to AOA funds would be appreciated I’m sure!
Aye
Mike
Doug,
I have a few Treadmaster ‘pads’ new and unused. They’re tucked away somewhere. Before unearthing them, can you let me know if you’re interested – colour beige/brown from memory; size about 15″ x 8″???; four or five pads.
Cheers
Mike
Greg,
A thorny problem. A1 has three separate compartments, the fore cabin, the engine space and the aft cabin. Most Atalantas have a further short space, the couple of feet or so between the two main bulkheads forward of the cockpit. Ideally each space needs its own bilge pumping arrangement. When I was restoring A1, it was readily apparent that she had no bilge pumping arrangements at all. To put pumping arrangements in all spaces was going to be unsightly, with pumps and pipework everywhere, as well as expensive (but what price safety?).
My solution, though admitedly a compromise, was to fit a large capacity hand-operated pump on frame which slotted into the tapered companionway into the fore cabin. The suction hose is long enought to reach all three compartments and the discharge hose empties into the cockpit and self drains down the keel slots.
Because of an annoying persistent leak in the engine compartment, an automatic electric bilge pump was fitted – mainly because the boat was being left to its own devices for two or three weeks at a time.
Couple of points; the suction hose,though flexible, must have good re-inforcement so it doesn’t suck flat – and the pump/hoses must be stowed where they can be deployed quickly and without fuss and bother. Mine are stowed (on top) in the aft cabin. I haven’t timed it, but I reckon the pump could be deployed inside of 45 seconds – a variation of the “fightened man with a bucket” option.
Aye Mike
Hello Trefor,
Welcome to the AOA and great news that you have become the new owner of Amber Ellen. Chris Green kindky mentions my laminating experiences, but my efforts are only those of a ‘determined amateur’ – which I guess covers the efforts of the majority of the members. Nothing wrong with that though, and results heve been pretty impressive over the years.
Laminating is not difficult – but it is time consuming. Having the correct tools and equipment is key. Have a look at the website where there is a wealth of information. If you would like to have a chat, please do feel free to give me a call on 07775 690726.
Good luck!
Mike (Dixon)
Hello Doug,
The closer the fit, the better the joint. I suspect the join between the blister and deck is not a perfect right angle and to complicate matters, the actual angle will vary along its length.
My wood-working skills are not up to the task of getting a perfect fit. Planing off the corners of the right angle along the two flat sides would help – anything which avoids a gap either between the blister and the quadrant or the deck and the quadrant will significantly help in eliminating water ingress.
I have no experience of timber steaming, but would reckon the quadrant beading would need some help (steaming?) as the radius is tight.
Good luck!
Mike
Interesting observations Jim.
Not being a qualified naval architect, (but I know who is) I’m not sure I can comment.
From my dinghy sailing days, I recall that the main object was to always keep the boat upright so as to maximise drive from the (upright) sails. Maybe an old wive’s tale, but it seemed to work.
The other drag is the rudder; there are those who advocate a tad of weather helm. I would have thought that neutral helm (ie with the rudder right onthe centere line) would be best so as to eliminate drag.
Then the really keen racing Atalanta skippers would advocate lifting one or other of the keels. My advanced years precludes this option.
To answer your question though, there must be someone who can interpret the underwater shape of the 10 to 15 degree heeled hull, displacement, sail plan etc and reach a definitive answer.
Mike
She’s looking good Doug!
Without looking at the ‘problem’, can’t be specific. Only advice I would suggest is that you protect ALL culprits to eliminate or reduce chafe. This would include the top edge of the raised rudder, the rudder uphaul wire and the two mooring ropes. And keep a careful eye on the set up. I’m assuming that the mooring lines can’t get underneath the rudder blade – another potential problem.
Vertical lifting rudder is a potential solution, but not to be undertaken lightly – lots of modification work to be carried out.
One other though just occured – have you an additional temporary line to hold the rudder up whilst the boat is on the mooring? If you rely on the rudder uphaul wire alone, and then it gives way, the rudder will drop and at the next low water – at best – risk the blade being bent, or – at worst – risk severely damaging the rudder and stock. At least one boat has had the rudder and stock ripped from the transom and the boat holed and sunk as a result. Maybe a bit of a faff rigging an additional temporary line, but………………
Cheers
Mike
Doug – couple of thoughts. Nick is correct that the seals do harden and deteriorate over time and putting new ones in makes sound sense. No use in putting replacements in if they’re the same vintage……………………
I had problems nipping up bolts on T4, until I realised that I was backing off the nuts so that the bolt disappeared outboard too far, such that the lug no longer engaged on the head of the bolt. And unless that lug is engaged, it’s virtually impossible to nip the nut up tight enough to stop water leaking in.
Only other suggestion is that if possible, could you beach the boat and let her dry out for three hours or so whilst you whip off the bold head cover plates to check if the lug is engaged on the flat of the bolt head?
Also, just a little nervous if you are relying on a float bilge pump to get rid of the water. These pumps have been known to fail. Also, batteries do flatten with excessive use.
Cheers, Mike
I bow to the expert’s opinions and suggestions.
Whilst aware that ‘sealed in’ S/S fittings rust alarmingly quickly given the wrong conditions, I have used S/S extensivley on all three Atalanta family boats. T4 is no longer with us, but not because of S/S failures; A31/4 seems to be fine and A1 likewise. Maybe I’ve just been lucky, but for me, using S/S is well worth the marginal risk.
Mike
Hello Derrick
Location of numbers seems to vary. The hull numbers and sail numbers don’t necessarily match up.
My Dinky (non-sailng) has its hull number 446 punched into the top surface of the hog – inside the boat – about a foot forward of the transom.
My Ducking has its hull number 1061 punched into the transom on the inside of the boat and you have to be something of a contorsionist to see it as it’s ‘hidden’ beneath the aft thwart. The sail number, rather optimistically, is D1. Nothing to do with Atalanta being A1 – merely tha sails when I got the boat.
So I would just pick a sail number of your choice and make sure the duckling logo is prominent on the sail (Mine isn’t)
Good hunting!
Mike
Hi Doug,
Not much to add to Nick’s post. I used “ivory” white in A1 as I find pure brilliant white just a tad too much. It was/is a marine paint but doesn’t appear to perform any better than Dulux which I used to good effect on previous boats.
Goes without saying, but start at the top and work down! Also would recommend wearing a hat of some sort!
Good luck – seems like you’re on the home straight.
Mike
Nick has sumarised well.
I think you are understandably wise in making sure there are no major problems with the keels/clamping arrangements/keel boxes. But as Nick rightly points out, if properly looked after they ought to be fine.
Please leave contact details with Nick; if we can help we will.
best of luck!
Mike
Doug – don’t have any further to Nick’s suggestions. Only thought – rather than douse the timbers, you could use a spray – more than a garden spray bottle but not as much as a hosepipe – and add some food colouring which might just identify where it goes in and where it comes out.
Good luck – cheers, Mike
Hi Doug,
There probably is a drawing somewhere, but previous owners seem to have spent the intervening years ‘improving’ the arrangements. Dom is on the money as usual – minimise the friction loss at all costs. Always helps as well if the rudder blade is aligned fore and aft before heaving up and down.
Mike
Doug,
I was aware of Colchide’s set up. But learnt something new with Trevor’s insight about the signal not penetrating a wooden hull.
Like Trevor’s installation, I already had a through hull hole, as well as both internal and external shaped pad pieces which follow the contour of the hull so that the transducer’s face sits horizontally.
Only slight problem is that it is very close to the boat’s centreline – which to be fair is where it ought to be – and risks fouling the trailer if I don’t watch it carefully.
Good luck!
Mike
Doug,
I have used Bilgex to good effect. Fishermen swear by it for cleaning their boat’s bilges. Not sure of its environmental credentials, but according to the www, it’s still widely available. I’ve got a rather battered and disreputable wet and dry vacuum cleaner, which is great for sucking the ‘orribe solution from the bilge – but a simple bilge pump would do just as well.
Then there’s always the car engine cleaner products you can get at Halford’s and the like.
And if you value the clealiness of the finger nails, invest in a pair of Marigolds!
Cheers!
Mike
When replacing the rubbing stakes on A1, I used Sapele. Bit of background – almost all the rot and damage to the hull lamintaes was the result of water ingress behind the rubbing stakes – which also act as cover plates over the joint between the hull and topside mouldings.
Following advice from Nick (Phillips) I applied two thicknesses of Sapele. Both were (are) 10mm thick. The first layer was epoxy glued to the hull and topside mouldings thus almost guaranteeing a waterproof joint and mitigating against further rot.
The second layer was screwed in place, with the edges profiled as necessary. I saw this second layer as ‘sacrificial’, in as much that if it became damaged (which it almost certainly will be), it is a relatively simple job to replace the damaged section, without having to disturb the first (inside layer).
I had no problem bending the strips to suit the curves of the hull.
Hope this helps.
Mike
Hi Doug,
De-zincified screws – there are many suggestions out there; in the end it boils down to how much effort you want to expend! I’ve tried most methods with mixed success. If the screws are powdery, then it’s extremely unlikely you’ll get the remains out. If there’s a bit of metal left you might be able to chew away at the surrounding wood so a Mole grip can be brought to bear on what remains of the screw head, but it’s likely the Mole grip will just snap off the head from the rest of the screw. And then your still left with a rather messy chewed up piece of surrounding wood. I’m told a bit of heat will free up recalcitrant screws, but in extremis you fisk a bonfire!
Another method (which I confess I have used extensively) is to to carefully remove as much of the old screw as possible without damaging the surrounding timber, carefully drill down a bit and then plug it with a suitably sized wooden dowel liberaly coated with epoxy/waterproof glue. Once cured, the plug can be smoothed back level with the surrounding timber. But then you have to put a brand new screw adjacent to the old screw to retain the strength. Bit laborious, but who knows that the plug is anything else but genuine?
Good luck!
Mike
Hi Doug,
Walking around directly on the inside of the hull to be avoioded – unless the boat is afloat when there is a good solid mass of water on t’other side of the hull.
As to sole boards, I believe I’m correct in saying that originally, Faireys had a simple arrangement where 1/4 ” ply shaped sheets were laid on the stringers. This was reasonable when the surface was relatively flat but became an issue when the two dimensional curves became more pronounced as you went for’d. The sole boards were also prone to slide around in a seaway, just when you wanted a good firm surface on which to place your wellies. Many owners took to screwing the sole boards to the stringers, but all sorts of detritus and belly fluff accumulated inbetween the sole boards and the hull, which over time began to smell quite alarmingly.
Hope this helps!
Mike
I had occasion to insure Atalanta just last month (August 2020). I had a builders policy with GJW whilst I carried out the restoration. Because I ran out of time last year, I quickly insured the boat third party only (no survey) for the brief 2019 season.
GJW would not insure the boat unless a full out of water survey was carried out by a professional surveyor. As far as I am aware, the AOA discount no longer applies and the AOA do not receive a percentagee of the premiums paid. Many members no longer use GJW as they have found better quotes elsewhere.
During the survey last month, I asked the Surveyor if he had any recommendations of brokers or insurance companies who were sympathetic to old wooden boats. He ‘off-the-record’ gave me four contacts. I eventually chose a broker, who whilst not the cheapest (but not much different) seemed to be on the ball with respect to old wooden boats. He also made me dig out insurance details of my former boat (over four year’s earlier) so that I and he could prove maximum no-claims discount.
Hope this helps,
Mike
Hi Doug,
Dom’s comments re having the ‘cap’ shrouds taught at all times is crucial if you don’t want (and you really don’t) the mast to flop from side to side. I have seen the spinnaker pole rigged at right angles to the mast to give greater initial leverage deployed to good effect even though the spinnaker pole look flimsy.
On T4, I was spoilt by having a pulley block set into the gable end of the YC’s shed, about 5 metres above the ground, which gave a good lead for hauling the mast vertical. I also lowered the mast on one occasion by borrowing (with permission) the mast of a neighbouring boat to provide the necessary lead for when the mast was lowered to the horizontal.
A1 has a dedicated aluminium pole tripod arrangement to provide the lead.
Chances are there are as many tried and tested methods as there are boats. And you never hear about the attempts that have ended in failure – with Dom’s notable exception.
Good luck!
Mike
