[AOA]

Another member has just rigged their boat with webbing slings.
The complete set, including shackles, was under £60.

Round Endless Lifting Slings. https://www.ebay.co.uk/
2 x 3m rated to 3 tonnes
1 x 4m rated to 2 tonnes

Bag of 10 Diall M14 D-shackles. https://www.screwfix.com/

[AOA]

Jim managed to find a brief moment to demonstrate the ladder whilst using it for its other purpose on Helene – tucking in the 4th reef which which is a long way above the boom.

[AOA]

As an aside, people may want to contrast a Morris Minor 60th celebration with ours in 2018 ….
Watch the first video ‘trailer’ (only 1.15) and then the main video follows on.

[AOA]

Hi Fraser

Sorry to hear that you are selling and wish you success in the sale and your bricks and mortar purchase.
Do keep us informed of progress. And make sure the new owner knows what a good bunch we are at the AOA 😉

Cheers
Nick

[AOA]

Hi Trefor

Great to hear that things are proceeding with Amber Ellen.
As Trevor says ‘Paper F Keel Servicing’ on the Technical Papers page is an essential start point.  It gives a really clear explanation of the various components, their operation and repair. (Its worth familiarising yourself with the other keel related papers too.)

You ask about support when out of the water.  It is certainly a good idea to lower them down onto the trailer structure or onto blocks on the ground to relieve the strain on the gear.  Equally it helps to loosen all three keel bolts on each side and try to lubricate the mechanism and particularly the clamping plates when laying up.  There should be a way of removing the keel box ‘lids’ forward of the bulkhead to gain (limited but sufficient) access for this lubrication.

As the keel are stuck getting some penetrating oil all over the clamping plates now, perhaps repeatedly over a few days, would be a good thing to do regardless (with due regard for any woodwork you might be going to paint).

Have you managed to move all six keel bolts? By which I mean slacken the nuts off but do not remove so they are a few millimetres (should that be in inches for an Atalanta?) off their tight position and then hit them to move the keel bolts towards the outside of the boat.  Before doing this you should remove the keel bolt covers on the outboard sides of the keel boxes. There are many different arrangements but typically each side will have three disks held to the case by bolts or screws.

Can you post a photo of this area of the keels?  It is surprising how much weight a little corrosion in the plates can support. When trying to remove the keels on Emma Duck last year we removed all the keel bolts and went at the keels with a scaffold pole and sledge and they were still reluctant to come out! (I am not suggesting you follow our method!)

Cheers
Nick

 

[AOA]

Welcome Trefor!

You may have already found some of the links Chris refers to above.  Two excellent references are the Boat Pages for A183 Bluster and Mike Dixon’s A1 Atalanta.  Both pages have a lot of posts referring to some excellent restoration work.

And Chris Green also has previous as evidenced on the Boat Page for his boat, A169 Elle.

Have you found the online Archive Index under the Reference menu item? You have to be logged in to access but once you are you can use the Filters and Search box to access the many articles and papers published over the years about restoring the boats.

And of course, please do ask any specific questions on her – I am pretty sure you will get lots of helpful responses!

Cheers
Nick

[AOA]

Looking good Richard. There have been some amazing days up until the last few which have been very wet!

You’ll go fast in the coming week!

Nick

[AOA]

It is great when we find new images from the past which need investigating.
And can be very frustrating.

A search of the registers yields no ‘hits’ for Redclyffe or Redcliff.
There is one hit for Wareham, and about ten for Poole in the 1970s-1980s. But no more specific clues.

So we need someone who recognises the photo / boat….

[AOA]

‘Le Bateau Ivre’ David – it would be very interesting to your views on this as a practising Naval Architect.

My own views are not based very much on Naval Architectural theory but rather the conclusions drawn (rightly or wrongly) from my sailing over the years.

On the matter of angle of heel. As Mike says keeping the boat level is the ideal in dinghies where it is possible to move the centre of gravity sideways by moving the crew. For keelboats this is more difficult because the relative weight of movable ballast (crew) is a much smaller proportion of boat weight, even lined up on the windward rail wellies waving. Also as the boat heels the centre of buoyancy of the underwater volume moves to leeward creating a ‘righting moment’ when coupled with the weight of the boat acting at the centre of gravity nearer the centreline. There is a simple explanation of ‘righting moment’ at https://www.sailboat-cruising.com/righting-moment.html

So, that righting moment works against the wind pressure to ‘stabilise’ the yacht in equilibrium at an angle of heel determined by the relative forces. In our cruising yachts I believe your empirical 10-15 degrees is a sensible sweet-spot, although it might vary slightly in other designs. Any more than this and the boat presents a less favourable shape to forward motion, bigger bow/stern waves, and more drag. Also helm angle tends to increase – more drag.
I have often found when sailing against similar boats in a bit of a blow that although it is exhilarating to sail ‘gunwale under’ a reef to return to that sweet-spot makes you go faster.

As to leeway increasing with raised keels. As you suggest you could measure leeway with different amounts of keel by noting the angle between a constant course steered and the ‘course made good’ on a plotter or GPS (corrected for Variation and Deviation of course). Ideally in identical conditions – waves, point of sail, wind strength, helm.
I would expect other factors to be more impactful in light winds but as the wind increases progress will definitely be negatively impacted with less keel.
Unless of course the extra keel is buried in the mud!

Nick

[AOA]

Hi Doug.
I replaced the forward part of the ‘beading’ on Helene (see ‘Blister Repairs’ post on A124’s page: https://atalantaowners.org/blister-repairs/).
In practice I found that the blister moulding had been made to be pretty close to a right angle with the deck – you can just make this out in the photos.

However, I do not think you will bend a quarter round moulding around the curve even with steaming, particularly an ‘off-the-shelf’ quadrant. You could have a piece of quality wood machined to the required profile and try steaming or soaking. You may have more success with soaking – make a container and pour boiling water over the wood and leave, perhaps even to the next day. This how Uffa bent the fine ribs on his International 14s with great success – steaming tends to take the ‘goodness’ out of the wood, drying them and they would split.

When I made my replacement beading I actually found it easier to laminate the quadrant in two pieces on a jig. The jig was a piece of MDF with holes for the clamps cut to the curve of the blister at the deck (see photos). I used some oak I already had.

A time consuming job but not too difficult and very satisfying.

Cheers
Nick

[AOA]

Hi Doug

Great news – great sailing to come!

Before commenting on your original query I will strongly second Mike’s suggestion to add secondary means of holding the rudder up. Ideally two lines, one to each quarter, which helps hold the rudder amidships. See photo of Helene’s arrangement when I had her:

Rudder safety line to keep it in the raised position

On your first point, definitely protect the mooring lines, rudder and rudder lines from chafing each other.
One thought to keep the rudder away from the mooring lines is not to raise it completely – leave it just submerged so that it does to foul the moring lines. The issue then changes to how to prevent damage when taking the ground.
Leaving the downhaul slack would allow the rudder to rise on grounding and drop on floating. However slack uphaul / downhaul lines can lead to them slipping off the blocks through the transom or in the rudder and jamming.

You could rig shockcord to keep the uphaul / downhaul tensioned at all times. Lengths of shockcord passed vertically over the horizontal uphaul/downhaul lines in the aft cabin pulling towards the cabin floor would keep them tensioned? (Helene had more complex shockcord arrangements to keep the lines tensioned).

An interesting challenge! Let us know how you get on.

Nick

[AOA]

I love it! I wonder how many other Atalantas have similar artefacts as yet uncovered?

Great that you are putting them back into service. Will you be providing spotlights and a plaque with historical notes above Helene’s loo for incumbents to fill their time?
Or, given the lack of space, maybe an audio commentary triggered by a pressure sensor in the bilge?

[AOA]

Doug

Glad you found it. And here is a picture that Richard emailed of the boards on A89.

Cheers
Nick

[AOA]

Memory is not what it was, but there are connections. The gables look very familiar, and I think I remember the veg shop. Is it the waterfront at Wivenhoe, probably 1950s?

Or it also looks a bit like the head of the old Olympia Creek, just upstream from Dartford on the Thames?

[AOA]

Richard

Thanks for the update on Peanut. Covid has been a challenge for many owners and boats in the past couple of years. Let’s hope Peanut and all of us can have a more normal season in 2022!

Cheers
Nick

[AOA]

Doug

A Very Happy Christmas to you too!

As with all things there are more views than there are Atalantas about best options.  The interior paint environment is nearly as harsh as the outside, largely down to condensation and the need for excellent ventilation.  The latter is, I think, key to a long lasting finish, both whilst afloat and even more so ashore in the winter. Ventilators and open hatches whenever you can and especially over winter.

Back to paint.  I generally use a number of ‘principles’ to guide me:

• With plenty of varnish trim to set it off, a not too ‘brilliant’ white yields a clean and welcoming environment. I have experimented with various (light) shades of cream but come back to white;
• In my experience, whilst nautical paints are expensive, you get what you pay for if you include how often you have to re-coat and pleasure applying;
• Good preparation and multiple coats of very good undercoat will reward in longevity and finish;
• A matt or silk finish, certainly not a high gloss, is best to minimise condensation;
• Extending the ‘Minnie-Helene’ Green theme from the recent bulletin, I lean towards the environmentally unfriendly ‘high VOC’ for longevity.  I know I will have to change and I am experimenting; (Advice from others re: acrylic and other water-based alternatives welcomed.)
• The miracle ‘anti-condensation’ paints are not miracles, can look very unattractive due to their texture.

On Helene I had good results with with Hempel’s ‘Multicoat’, billed as a ‘jack of all trades’ paint and with a matt/silk finish.

Cheers
Nick

.. Helene’s interior before I sold her

And the interior of a previous love …

 

[AOA]

Chris. Can see your reply here. Not sure what went wrong with previous replies. Might be worth a telephone conversation to walk through steps you took so that I can see what the issue is.
Nick

[AOA]

Doug
Just catching up after time at Southampton and other projects.’Search’ is still an ongoing subject (and needs volunteer ‘Archivists’ to help index website entries – anyone interested you know where I am).

But I don’t think there is much on here. Stuff I can remember / find:

• A102 – https://atalantaowners.org/boat-cover-for-mary/
• Your own ‘Do I need a barn’ post https://atalantaowners.org/forums/topic/do-i-need-a-barn/
• Simon Garretts wonderful Stimson shelter – see the 2013-14 Bulletin

I thought that I had posted about my own ‘post-restoration-shed’ winter arrangements but find that I haven’t. So here goes.

Helene has fared very well since 2015 with the following approach (apologies for no photographs – unbelievably for me I don’t have any of the cover):

• Maximise ventilation through the boat
  • Open ended cover – both ends – to let the wind blow through.
  • Forehatch propped open at 30 degrees or so
  • No washboards fitted
  • Locker lids removed or propped open
  • Remove as much (all) gear as possible to loft/spare room/shed etc
• Cover overhangs bow and stern by 18″ or so and comes halfway down boat freeboard
• Cover ridge pole is NOT the mast. I used to place the mast on supports at bow, mast step and aft end of cockpit and then have further supports above that which supported a ridge pole made of aluminium tube and timber
• Cover is heavy weight. Light weight tarpaulins flutter and tear.  Although some might suggest a breathable acrylic (e.g. Sunbrella) to be ‘the best’ I think that a heavyweight vinyl cover is better. It is wind resistant, does not flutter or tear. It is true that it does attract some condensation on its inner surface but the ventilation and the slope gets rid of this. Helene’s cover was, I think, something like 650gsm vinyl. In one piece which made it fun to handle – better with front and back halves.
• One issue with my arrangement is that the heavy cover wears the varnish on the handrails and marks the paint on the deck ‘shoulders’. Some have created ‘stand-offs’ from wood which fit to stanchion posts to hold the cover off the boat nut I just topped it up each year.

A1 has a vinyl cover tailored to deck fittings  a bit like A102’s but for the mast raised.

Hope that helps

Cheers
Nick

[AOA]

Hi

In general the keelboxes and keel mechanisms are more robust than you might think, but definitely worth checking.

There is a technical paper which covers servicing of the keels but is long and not really relevant to a purchase ‘check’. (It is one of the set of technical documentation available to members of the Association).

However, we do have a paper on surveying an Atalanta, and a lot of experience which I and others will contribute via your post. And if it would be helpful there is a high chance we would be able to find an experienced owner who would view the boat with you and give their opinion.

You can find the paper here .

From my own experience:

• Five years out of the water is not in itself an issue.
  • My Atalanta was out of the water for over 10 years and suffered no keelbox issues.
  • The question is what condition was she when she was last in the water and how has she been stored. If not inside she should have had good covers with plenty of through ventilation
• For the steelwork:
  • A good overall assessment can be made just by looking at the external condition of the plates in the cabin. If they are clear of rust that is a very positive sign. If they are very rusty the opposite.
  • If the owner will allow lifting of one of the inspection plates in the main cabin you will have a good view of the clamping plates. You should expect some rust but signs of grease indicate they have been looked after.
  • Ask the owner if you can under one or two of the upper 4 keel clamp bolts. These do not take any significant weight and once the cylindrical nuts are undone should move reasonably easily with a sharp ‘clout’ (from a piece of wood ideally). If they don’t move it is not necessarily a major issue but something that will need investigation.
• For the woodwork
  • The paper includes good advice about checking the sides of the keelboxes which project into the main cabin
  • Inspect the rest of the keelbox sides, inboard and outboard, where you can get access and also the vertical timber between them at the fore and aft ends. You are looking for signs of movement, leaks or softness.
  • If the owner will allow, lifting the cover plates in the cockpit and galley/chart table area gives a good view of the keelbox interiors although the keels will be in the way to some extent

Hope that helps.

And don’t forget – the Association Members are all friendly folk and if they can would love to help in your purchase. If you want to talk to one of us drop your number to me using the website Contact form at the very bottom of the page.

Cheers

Nick

[AOA]

Doug
Oh Dear! That is a great shame.

Do you have a feel for whereabouts the leaks were? Forward, aft? Where they join the hull?

I would have thought it unlikely to have resulted from ‘something shifting’ – its generally pretty robust. Could it be wood drying out through years in the dry? I know that the vertical timbers between the case sides at the forward and aft ends can give trouble, but I think Dom did work on these?

I wouldn’t use a high pressure hose, they can do a lot of damage. But just low pressure played onto joints might help. Or you could try putting water inside the boat ashore to see if you can pin down the leaks? Whilst it would take a lot of water for the inside edges of the box you should be able to test the outside edges?

And I wonder if she would ‘take up’. The ‘logs’ which join the case sides to the hull are large pieces of timber and if they have dried out might have shrunk. Again, water inside the boat for a few days might help diagnose this.

Cheers
Nick

[AOA]

Hi

Relevant drawings is C24865 – Atalanta 26 Arrangement of rudder uphaul and downhaul.

Friction is the enemy. On Helene the wires exit through the transom over a bolt. The bolt has lots of spacers on and importantly two sheaves. The wires had to be in the sheaves. If either the uphill or downhaul are allowed to go completely slack during raising or lowering the wires could jump off. You must keep light pressure on the one you are not pulling. Shockcord can be your friend here…

Cheers
Nick

[AOA]

Oh dear, I am really sorry to have misled you Doug. Dom is absolutely right. I allowed myself to become confused having just fitted magnesium to a boat on the broads. Looking again at photos of Helene’s rudder anode the apprear, as Dom says, standard zinc.
I have edited my original erroneous reply to avoid misleading anyone else in the future.
Many apologies
Nick, on the naughty step

[AOA]

Doug

I think you want a magnesium anode rather than the more usual zinc. They make themy specifically for aluminium rudders as large diameter profiles discs. Ed.2/6/21 This response is incorrect, with apologies, as magnesium is freshwater use only. Large disc zinc anodes should be used.

Available from lots of places. E.g Force 4 

Cheers
Nick

[AOA]

Doug
+1 for Bilgex.
You may like to read PBO’s review at https://www.pbo.co.uk/gear/best-bilge-cleaners-50797

Another thought. I strongly recommend the use of an ‘oil mat’ under the engine (ideally in the drip tray if you have one).
Not the ‘socks’ which I think are less useful.
You can get them all over the place e.g. in bulk or through chandlers and marine suppliers such as ASAP supplies .
They are a bit of a ‘green’ compromise – they are made of plastic.

Cheers
Nick

[AOA]

I would echo Dom’s suggestion of considering hiring when you need it, if its just going to be occasional towing, or you need that type of tow vehicle for other purposes. 3.5t towing capacity is a must – by the time you have the boat and gear, trailer and yourself you will not be far from that. And it is the stopping and cornering, not the pulling you need to worry about. The running costs on suitable cars are much much higher than a large estate or even a 2wd SUV.
I have had two Discoveries and a Touareg – all very competent tow vehicles, all very expensive to run.
My problem was that there were no hire companies in Norfolk with suitable ‘casual’ hire vehicles that I could conveniently rely on. However I know that Laurence hired an excellent car in Dorst to pick up Joann earlier this year.

But of course suitable tow vehicles do also make commanding everyday drivers……

[AOA]

Hi Doug
Struggling to understand the specific issue you are having. Photographs? Am struggling to visualise the issue you are having.
Cheers
Nick

[AOA]

Hi Andrew
The keels often represent the biggest concern to prospective and current owners.
In practice
– the whole design / mechanisn is much more robust and tolerant that we might think at first
– the AOA have technical papers and members with enormous experience to help you

If you are thinking of buying an Atalanta I would strongly recommend becoming a member and getting access to the extensive archive of technical papers and Bulletin articles. Specifically there is an excellent technical paper about maintenance of the keels and their mechanisms. We will do our best to support anyone interested in an Atalanta. And spending £20 in getting access to the AOA archive and membership is a perhaps the best way to help yourself.

Cheers
Nick
Webmaster

[AOA]

Just to echo Mike’s comments about not walking on the hull and references to belly fluff….

Helene has 6 1/4″ boards which fit onto the stringed between ‘hog’ and bunk side, with battens to space between to space them out.
They can be seen in this photo of Helene when I bought her https://atalantaowners.org/a124-helene-broker-003/

Helene’s are actually a tight fit, particularly once they have been stood on. I like the arrangement because it maximises headroom. It would be simple to add wooden turnbuttoms to the bunk sides to keep the boards in place. They are held in place already by the ‘hog’ dues to the acute angle between hull and ‘hog’ vertical side.

Cheers
Nick

 

[AOA]

Jonathan

Thanks for bringing this to our attention.  A very sad accident.  The Yachting Monthly website has an online article with some details. From the Registers Brian owned A78 Marianda in 1975.

Cheers
Nick

[AOA]

Hi Doug
Definitely no silicon!
And I would not use Sikaflex 291. This sets like a glue. People use it to seal keel frames to the boxes and keel bolt covers. Mistake – you try and get these items off in a year or two if you have used it.  The plastic strips are ‘service’ items and you want to get them off in the future easily.

Why do they need mastic at all? The brass strips will hold them on. Assuming the timber on which they will sit is well primed and painted, just need something to seal the screw holes.  I don’t use anything on Helene.

If you feel you must use mastic then I would strongly recommend a butyl based non-setting muck.
I have had very good results with this from Traditional Boat Supplies.
Or you can get Arbomast at a lot of builders merchants.

Hope that helps
Cheers
Nick

 

[Author]

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